I don’t know this artist Tom Sachs at all, but I came across his model of a NASA Hasselblad camera. The low-fi real but not real aesthetic of it appeals. Its not a copy, but, too crude to be a facsimile. I am never quite sure what a Jean Baudrillard’s simulacra means, but  it our mixed up world of augemented, immersive, distracted, digital reality, his stuff seems pretty good. Love to see some of his art work for real. Anyway I have transcribed part of an interview he has , that I found on you tube. Talks to all of this. The interviewer gets bonus points for the Francis Bacon interview quote. I read that book as an angsty art student, and its full off good stuff. Although you can’t escape the feeling Francis Bacon may be getting drunk. I wonder if its like a party where you thought you were the wit of the evening, but the next day you turn out to be a nincompoop.

AS: Do you know this book? Interviews with Fracis Bacon by David Sylvester. And Bacon is… its… I know its his he kills me he’s a terrible person. I know about its history and what a  manipulative crazy man he was.

But I love his painting so much.  But its him talking about art where he uses words like reality and I think he gets it right. I think so here’s the thing he says . And i wanna talk about it. Um he’s talking about him putting cricket padding on one of his  figures. In a painting in this one here. And he is asked why he did it. And he says ” it is in the artificial structure that the reality of the subject will be caught and the trap will close over the subject matter and leave only the reality.

TS: mmmmm

AS: it gets better. One always starts a piece of work with the subject no matter how tenuous it is and one construction artificial structure by which one can trap the reality of the subject matter that one has started with.

TS: Nods

AS: The subject is the bait. And he says and what is the reality that remains? The residue. And how does it relate what you begin with? and Bacon says  it doesn’t relate to it. But you will have created a realism equivalent to the subject matter.  Which will be what is left in its place.

TS: Tricky!

AS: I know but I look at your gas station and…. and I think it’s  not even a simulacrum of the gas station. Lke I feel and I understand a gas station when I look at it is there a… like

TS: Thats…yeah… that’s really… yeah I can speak to that. Because for us it becomes real. That gas station becomes real. The space programs a better example that because when we go to Mars. We’re really going to Mars. And I don’t mean that in a arrogant kind of way like my art so serious, you know, if you don’t taken as seriously as I take it you’re an asshole.

AS: Right

TS: But I I mean it by.. if we… If we take it seriously and we say we’re really going to Mars the other mars then all the details become real in our our ritual experience of building it. Becomes real. I spoke to Buzz Aldrin. We’d have an interview and I was very nervous.

AS:I can imagine

TS: What was I going to ask this guy? And I said… I was having problems with my helmet. Sow I will ask him something technical. So how do you deal with the condensation in the helmets?  And Buzz said oh yeah it was a terrible was a pain in the neck… it was  difficult we had compensation. For you your space helmets aren’t real Tom just put a cut a hole in the back and you will have perfect ventilation. And then you know I had to explain like Ali G or some one. To Buzz … but Buzz my space program is real  and we install… We are installing fans to reduce the condensation. So that now are spaces suits have to have a battery for the fan. And now we’ve got a greater sense of  um complications. yeah it’s a it’s a pain the butt. TS: Yeah but if you don’t problem solve

TS:  I’ll yeah and through that the experience becomes real for us. I mean if you imagine in going to being an Apollo astronaut. All the training the you have to go through and then you have a few minutes on the surface the moon you come back to our a career of alcoholism or whatever… Like that most of what you did in your life is study and prepare and learn.

AS:Yeah

TS: And then you did this brief, Its sort of like martial arts. You throw a million punches see you never have to throw one. and…

AS: Right

TS: The greatest martial artist prepared and one day he’s and dark alley if he gets attacked and he doesn’t even have to throw a punch because he has such mastery of the experience that he knows to run.

AS:Right

TS: And on his deathbed he looks at his life and he thinks about moment and he’s quite satisfied that he was a student his entire life. And for me that the experience is always learning. And sometimes not knowing the detail. Not knowing how a space suit works and then to starting from the picture in a magazine that tore out circled as my inspiration and getting in touch with that moment where you have the Epiphany you have an idea and then you… it takes you 10,000 hours to realise it but the idea occurred in a half a second.

AS: Right…. like dogs like dogs rough housing, like that child playing the thing that you end up with is every bit a reality of the space program implemented from you. Like those problems all had to be solved by thousands people on NASA’s part. By dozens of people on your part but it is the same thing going on.

TS:Nodding – yeah

AS: Its the ultimate play set.

TS: Um…yeah… and people will… people will  and I don’t know how far you want to go. But people will say you know but it’s kinda whack. Like your spaceship is in really real. Its plywood. It is kinda .. it’s like make-believe and and or like, you know, you make your own homemade guns. But you know people like you from Connecticut go to Kmart by their guns you know. They don’t make them that’s what people like New Guinea do. Where gangsters make guns and have pipe… and plywood or whatever. And I talked to Master T – Robert Farris Thompson about this. And he said said you know master TM I’m, you know, feeling a little insecure about this. I … you know,  people should be buying my guns. They shouldn’t be making all this the stuff. He’s like yeah but  if you do for two years it’s an interest’ five years to Hobby’ when you dedicate your entire life to it the little holes that you have are so small they won’t be able to fuck with you. And so through time……. And I think this is what Bacon is trying to say in some way. But its through different means. But through enough time in work the objects can become real.

AS:  Right

TS: And they can be imbued with enough power. Um… for…

AS: To trascend send their origin. They’re no longer what most people think as a representation of a thing.

TS: Yeah they’re told they’re not that right but that’s that’s a lot of work. And you know for me it’s it’s totally worth it. That’s the whole  point.

AS: I don’t can’t imagine a better place to stop it. Thank you

TS:That was awesome, lets go eat

AS:Yeah OK.